If you participate in what Jung refers to as the participation mystique, you would not know it because this kind of participation is entirely unconscious, which is why it can be very dangerous when the psyche in negatively constellated, i.e., reacting against cultural decadence, the destruction of the ecological environment etc. Even if you consciously know you are destroying the environment and acting decadently, this is not the same as the participation mystique aspect of one's relationship with the mindlessness of the masses. For example, all anorexics consciously understand that they are acting self-destructively, but unconsciously they are all in a destructive participation mystique that is viscerally experienced as something positively enchanting and aimed at the greater good, hence the mind-bending paradox of self-destructive behaviour.
Hi Mats, If you have problems with posting, try using you word processor rather than Notepad. Most of the time I use Word or Word Perfect and post by copying what I have written and pasting into the forum reply box.
Often I copy the post that I want to reply to and past it in my word processing programme and then make a reply and after I am satisfied with it I simply copy and past the reply in the forum's reply box. I did have some problem posting a reply here earlier, but everything seems to be working okay now.
Hi Mats, I tried to send a message to you on Facebook, but that failed. So I shut down my computer and restarted it. The Facebook message service failed again.
There are two reasons why I want to publish and distribute the book myself. The one is that the distributors take the lion's share of the proceeds, more than is necessary from what I have read about the problem with ebook publishers. The other problem is censorship. If the censors get hold of it they would try to use some trickery to either block access or discourage people from buying the book. I will keep this short. There is a lot more to be said. I need your email address, so I can correspond directly to you because I feel that you are someone I can trust. We have corresponded on the CG Jung page forum years ago before they shut it down because there were too many insane people making nasty posts. My email is at theartoftragedy@gmail.com
Malcolm
Mats Winther > Malcolm TimbersAugust 30, 2015 at 11:20pm
Malcolm, I get a " WARNING. Mail Delayed" when replying to that email address of yours. /Mats
"he knew nothing about..." - Just as Mats said, you never know what kind of concept and interaction can add more weight to an original idea. My chapter is published here (the last one): http://www.igi-global.com/book/rethinking-machine-ethics-age-ubiqui... There are some deranged assumptions in in that sense is up to other people to have their opinion or ignore it. The point is that the draft version was very different from the final version after my communication with other people and the editor's interventions.
Those anorexic and (if I'm right in my assessment) chronically bored people or who know that "we'll all die someday" (perhaps Edgar Alan Poe H.P. Lovecraft were "archetypal" writers in this genre), those devoted in their belief in nothing (Different than nihilists who don't believe in anything?), seem to be important from the point of view of a psychotherapist (something I am not - hence without the official therapist-patient encounter I am totally helpless to say anything relevant when I meet such a person).
Malcolm Timbers > Aleksandar MalecicAugust 24, 2015 at 4:30pm
Hi Aleksandar, I am impressed that you are published in a highly intellectual field. I am not an intellectual. I am an intuitive type who is able to see through the symbolic metaphors that typically appear in fictional portrayals that represent what is going on in the unconsciousness of the cultural participation mystique. I have a hard time understanding intellectual stuff. I have a problem with dyslexia, so I must write in a plain and straightforward manner. I have a hard time trying to read the chapter that you wrote for that book, or at least the editor’s version of what you wrote. In fact, I rarely read fictional material or highly intellectual stuff as it all appears muddled and tiring to me. Most of my analysis of stuff comes from visual media. I have no problem reading and understanding Jung, yet intellectual people complain that it is hard to understand Jung, and read other Jungians instead. The English translations of Jung’s works are written in a fairly straightforward manner. I think the reason why Jung is difficult for many people to understand is their minds throw up a mental block because what he wrote is too easy to understand and the stark reality of the subject matter can be highly insulting to one fragile ego. Marion Woodman wrote in somewhat poetic manner that is often difficult to understand, which is probably why her work is popular.
Re my book project about the mythology behind anorexia nervosa: The ultimate authority for the mythology behind anorexia nervosa come from a history that keeps repeating itself. Aside from that, Jung describes this mythology, but not in a way that one can easily relate it to the problem of anorexia nervosa without someone to point out the relationship. This is simply because there are a few key words and/or descriptions missing in Jung’s description of the mythology, but those words can be found said by other authorities on the same mythology.
(I deleted this in order to edit it and re-post it.)
Because Marion Woodman doesn’t explain the things in an articulate manner I have taken the liberty to add the missing words and explanations:
Unless cultural rituals support the leap from one level of consciousness [or stage of life] to another, there are no containing walls within [the individual’s experience of life with] which the process [of developing the personality or a new attitude] can happen. Without an [Jungian] understanding of myth or religion, without an understanding of the [actual and symbolic] relationship between destruction and creation, death and rebirth, the individual suffers the mysteries of life as meaningless mayhem—alone [because there are no cultural rituals or initiation into the next stage of life and the type of consciousness that it requires]. To ease the meaningless suffering, addictions [including anorexia nervosa] may develop that are an attempt to repress the confusing demands of the growth [i.e., developmental] process which cultural structures no longer clarify or contain [in the context of the meaning and purpose of life]. (Woodman, Marion, The Pregnant Virgin, Published by Inner City Books (1985), Toronto, p.24)
Instead, the modern socioeconomic agenda uses seductive and regressive enticements that arouse desires for the ‘ten thousand things’ that Buddhism says is the cause of suffering.
I am focussing upon the problem of anorexia nervosa because Marion Woodman’s series of books partly deals with eating disorders, and anorexia nervosa is the focus of my own project The Queen of Wonderland.
Re the “understanding of myth and religion:” The reason why analysts do not understand what anorexia nervosa is in itself is because they do not understand the nature of the mythology that is being spun in the psychic background of the anorexic. There is more than one mythic theme involved in anorexia nervosa, which is why it is so difficult to understand.
Re the “understanding of the relationship between destruction and creation, death and rebirth:” The relationship between creation and destruction is that at each stage of life the previous attitude must be destroyed so that a new attitude can emerge that is suitable for the stage of life that one is entering. Symbolically this means the death of the obsolete life and the rebirth into a new life. Not understanding this leaves the individual stuck in an attitude that has become obsolete and a source of suffering because it is maladaptive.
Re: “addictions [including anorexia nervosa] may develop that are an attempt to repress the confusing demands of the growth [i.e., the developmental] process which cultural structures no longer clarify or contain.” Contrary to Woodman’s assumption that addiction is “an attempt to repress the confusing demands of the growth process,” I see the phenomenon of addiction as a psychic reaction in the form of a seductive delusional inspiration rather than the individual’s deliberation. The purpose of the psyche’s inspiration is to engage the individual in a course of self-destructive behaviour as a provocative statement against the culture for neglecting psychic hygiene. “Neuroses are in most cases not just private concerns, but social phenomena. (C.G. Jung, C.W., Vol.9i, ¶.98)” Re destructive and self-destructive behaviour: “if we step through the door of the shadow we discover with terror that we are the objects of unseen factors. To know this is decidedly unpleasant, for nothing is more disillusioning than the discovery of our own inadequacy. . . . the greatest danger threatening us comes from the unpredictability of the psyche's reactions. (C.G. Jung, C.W., Vol.9i, ¶.49).” “It is, in fact, one of the important tasks of psychic hygiene to pay continual attention to the symptomatology of unconscious contents (C.G. Jung, C.W., Vol.9ii, ¶.40).”
Although Marion Woodman had a good understanding of eating disorders, she was unaware of the most significant mythological theme being spun in the psychic background of anorexics’ minds. There is an ego taboo and a cultural taboo about understanding anything about this mythological theme, which is why absolutely nobody understands what anorexia nervosa is actually about in the context of depth psychology. The theme of the maiden’s descent into the underworld is the most understood mythological theme behind anorexia nervosa. But this myth only provides a smokescreen that hides the most significant mythological theme that influences the anorexic’s behaviour. Understand the mythology behind anorexia nervosa would spoil the psyche’s game. That is, anorexia nervosa possesses a cultural meaning and purpose, which is why the psyche provide the smokescreen effect and a foreboding sense of taboo against penetrating the miasma in order to keep the game spinning.
My book project, The Queen of Wonderland, explains the mythology that has the anorexic in its thrall. Unfortunately, I am not receiving any communication re my work even though quite a number of people are visiting my web sites, thequeenofwonderland.com and theartoftragedy.com. Unless I can get some interest in my work, I cannot hope to market the book after I publish it. So, even though the text for The Queen of Wonderland has been finished months ago, it sits in limbo while I am trying to find out why I am not getting any interest in it. I realize that there is a mental block set in place by the psyche against understanding what anorexia nervosa is in itself, but you’d think that with girls and young women suffering and dying of the disorder there would be someone out there who would be sincere about their interest in curing the disorder, rather than supporting all the pseudo explanations that uses anorexics as valuable assets to be groomed as lifelong users of expensive and potentially harmful psycho-pharmaceutical drugs.
Mats Winther > Malcolm TimbersAugust 21, 2015 at 11:54am
Malcolm, it is a very demanding subject matter, which requires time and effort. One cannot expect people to dig into it, because they have so much else to do. For some reason, authors are reluctant to presenting a concise summary of their theory. This is how it should be done, in the form of an abstract. Moreover, one should produce a more professionally looking website, with black characters on whitish background. Your website looks like if it was made for New Agers.
But even then, it's difficult to receive attention. Many Jungian authors, with doctor's grade, earn no money on their books. There is so much literature, so much competition. Yet, ideas may, over time, slowly affect people. This is how it works, I believe. Ideas evolve on the collective unconscious plane. My own articles have received no special attention either. I never expected them to. I write mostly to get a better grasp of a subject, and it is intellectually stimulating and fun.
However, I believe that ideas are like seed that are dispersed. They may come to fruition in the future, perhaps in some other author, who has picked up on some of the good aspects. Even if one's theories aren't perfectly correct, they may spawn new and better thoughts. It is a collective project.
Replies
Hi Charlotte,
If you participate in what Jung refers to as the participation mystique, you would not know it because this kind of participation is entirely unconscious, which is why it can be very dangerous when the psyche in negatively constellated, i.e., reacting against cultural decadence, the destruction of the ecological environment etc. Even if you consciously know you are destroying the environment and acting decadently, this is not the same as the participation mystique aspect of one's relationship with the mindlessness of the masses. For example, all anorexics consciously understand that they are acting self-destructively, but unconsciously they are all in a destructive participation mystique that is viscerally experienced as something positively enchanting and aimed at the greater good, hence the mind-bending paradox of self-destructive behaviour.
Malcolm
I got your email and have just sent a reply to you. We were having wind storms in this part of the country and the power went down in some areas.
Hi Mats, If you have problems with posting, try using you word processor rather than Notepad. Most of the time I use Word or Word Perfect and post by copying what I have written and pasting into the forum reply box.
Often I copy the post that I want to reply to and past it in my word processing programme and then make a reply and after I am satisfied with it I simply copy and past the reply in the forum's reply box. I did have some problem posting a reply here earlier, but everything seems to be working okay now.
Malcolm
Hi Mats, I tried to send a message to you on Facebook, but that failed. So I shut down my computer and restarted it. The Facebook message service failed again.
There are two reasons why I want to publish and distribute the book myself. The one is that the distributors take the lion's share of the proceeds, more than is necessary from what I have read about the problem with ebook publishers. The other problem is censorship. If the censors get hold of it they would try to use some trickery to either block access or discourage people from buying the book. I will keep this short. There is a lot more to be said. I need your email address, so I can correspond directly to you because I feel that you are someone I can trust. We have corresponded on the CG Jung page forum years ago before they shut it down because there were too many insane people making nasty posts. My email is at theartoftragedy@gmail.com
Malcolm
Malcolm, I get a " WARNING. Mail Delayed" when replying to that email address of yours. /Mats
(Sorry for bumping this thread.)
"he knew nothing about..." - Just as Mats said, you never know what kind of concept and interaction can add more weight to an original idea. My chapter is published here (the last one): http://www.igi-global.com/book/rethinking-machine-ethics-age-ubiqui... There are some deranged assumptions in in that sense is up to other people to have their opinion or ignore it. The point is that the draft version was very different from the final version after my communication with other people and the editor's interventions.
Those anorexic and (if I'm right in my assessment) chronically bored people or who know that "we'll all die someday" (perhaps Edgar Alan Poe H.P. Lovecraft were "archetypal" writers in this genre), those devoted in their belief in nothing (Different than nihilists who don't believe in anything?), seem to be important from the point of view of a psychotherapist (something I am not - hence without the official therapist-patient encounter I am totally helpless to say anything relevant when I meet such a person).
Hi Aleksandar, I am impressed that you are published in a highly intellectual field. I am not an intellectual. I am an intuitive type who is able to see through the symbolic metaphors that typically appear in fictional portrayals that represent what is going on in the unconsciousness of the cultural participation mystique. I have a hard time understanding intellectual stuff. I have a problem with dyslexia, so I must write in a plain and straightforward manner. I have a hard time trying to read the chapter that you wrote for that book, or at least the editor’s version of what you wrote. In fact, I rarely read fictional material or highly intellectual stuff as it all appears muddled and tiring to me. Most of my analysis of stuff comes from visual media. I have no problem reading and understanding Jung, yet intellectual people complain that it is hard to understand Jung, and read other Jungians instead. The English translations of Jung’s works are written in a fairly straightforward manner. I think the reason why Jung is difficult for many people to understand is their minds throw up a mental block because what he wrote is too easy to understand and the stark reality of the subject matter can be highly insulting to one fragile ego. Marion Woodman wrote in somewhat poetic manner that is often difficult to understand, which is probably why her work is popular.
Re my book project about the mythology behind anorexia nervosa: The ultimate authority for the mythology behind anorexia nervosa come from a history that keeps repeating itself. Aside from that, Jung describes this mythology, but not in a way that one can easily relate it to the problem of anorexia nervosa without someone to point out the relationship. This is simply because there are a few key words and/or descriptions missing in Jung’s description of the mythology, but those words can be found said by other authorities on the same mythology.
So THAT'S why I'm single. FINALLY I have an answer for Mom. ;)
(I deleted this in order to edit it and re-post it.)
Because Marion Woodman doesn’t explain the things in an articulate manner I have taken the liberty to add the missing words and explanations:
Instead, the modern socioeconomic agenda uses seductive and regressive enticements that arouse desires for the ‘ten thousand things’ that Buddhism says is the cause of suffering.
I am focussing upon the problem of anorexia nervosa because Marion Woodman’s series of books partly deals with eating disorders, and anorexia nervosa is the focus of my own project The Queen of Wonderland.
Re the “understanding of myth and religion:” The reason why analysts do not understand what anorexia nervosa is in itself is because they do not understand the nature of the mythology that is being spun in the psychic background of the anorexic. There is more than one mythic theme involved in anorexia nervosa, which is why it is so difficult to understand.
Re the “understanding of the relationship between destruction and creation, death and rebirth:” The relationship between creation and destruction is that at each stage of life the previous attitude must be destroyed so that a new attitude can emerge that is suitable for the stage of life that one is entering. Symbolically this means the death of the obsolete life and the rebirth into a new life. Not understanding this leaves the individual stuck in an attitude that has become obsolete and a source of suffering because it is maladaptive.
Re: “addictions [including anorexia nervosa] may develop that are an attempt to repress the confusing demands of the growth [i.e., the developmental] process which cultural structures no longer clarify or contain.” Contrary to Woodman’s assumption that addiction is “an attempt to repress the confusing demands of the growth process,” I see the phenomenon of addiction as a psychic reaction in the form of a seductive delusional inspiration rather than the individual’s deliberation. The purpose of the psyche’s inspiration is to engage the individual in a course of self-destructive behaviour as a provocative statement against the culture for neglecting psychic hygiene. “Neuroses are in most cases not just private concerns, but social phenomena. (C.G. Jung, C.W., Vol.9i, ¶.98)” Re destructive and self-destructive behaviour: “if we step through the door of the shadow we discover with terror that we are the objects of unseen factors. To know this is decidedly unpleasant, for nothing is more disillusioning than the discovery of our own inadequacy. . . . the greatest danger threatening us comes from the unpredictability of the psyche's reactions. (C.G. Jung, C.W., Vol.9i, ¶.49).” “It is, in fact, one of the important tasks of psychic hygiene to pay continual attention to the symptomatology of unconscious contents (C.G. Jung, C.W., Vol.9ii, ¶.40).”
Although Marion Woodman had a good understanding of eating disorders, she was unaware of the most significant mythological theme being spun in the psychic background of anorexics’ minds. There is an ego taboo and a cultural taboo about understanding anything about this mythological theme, which is why absolutely nobody understands what anorexia nervosa is actually about in the context of depth psychology. The theme of the maiden’s descent into the underworld is the most understood mythological theme behind anorexia nervosa. But this myth only provides a smokescreen that hides the most significant mythological theme that influences the anorexic’s behaviour. Understand the mythology behind anorexia nervosa would spoil the psyche’s game. That is, anorexia nervosa possesses a cultural meaning and purpose, which is why the psyche provide the smokescreen effect and a foreboding sense of taboo against penetrating the miasma in order to keep the game spinning.
My book project, The Queen of Wonderland, explains the mythology that has the anorexic in its thrall. Unfortunately, I am not receiving any communication re my work even though quite a number of people are visiting my web sites, thequeenofwonderland.com and theartoftragedy.com. Unless I can get some interest in my work, I cannot hope to market the book after I publish it. So, even though the text for The Queen of Wonderland has been finished months ago, it sits in limbo while I am trying to find out why I am not getting any interest in it. I realize that there is a mental block set in place by the psyche against understanding what anorexia nervosa is in itself, but you’d think that with girls and young women suffering and dying of the disorder there would be someone out there who would be sincere about their interest in curing the disorder, rather than supporting all the pseudo explanations that uses anorexics as valuable assets to be groomed as lifelong users of expensive and potentially harmful psycho-pharmaceutical drugs.
Malcolm, it is a very demanding subject matter, which requires time and effort. One cannot expect people to dig into it, because they have so much else to do. For some reason, authors are reluctant to presenting a concise summary of their theory. This is how it should be done, in the form of an abstract. Moreover, one should produce a more professionally looking website, with black characters on whitish background. Your website looks like if it was made for New Agers.
But even then, it's difficult to receive attention. Many Jungian authors, with doctor's grade, earn no money on their books. There is so much literature, so much competition. Yet, ideas may, over time, slowly affect people. This is how it works, I believe. Ideas evolve on the collective unconscious plane. My own articles have received no special attention either. I never expected them to. I write mostly to get a better grasp of a subject, and it is intellectually stimulating and fun.
However, I believe that ideas are like seed that are dispersed. They may come to fruition in the future, perhaps in some other author, who has picked up on some of the good aspects. Even if one's theories aren't perfectly correct, they may spawn new and better thoughts. It is a collective project.
M. Winther
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