Lecture 18 The Red Book Study Group

Quite a lively discussion on lecture 17!
Quite involved and a little hard for me to follow the connection with the material in Lecture 17 at times.
Here we are at Lecture 18, so let's reel ourselves back to specific discussion of the material in Robbie and Jung's Red Book.
Any references to other sources please clue us all in to how it relates to the material at hand.

This s just a quick message to open lecture 18, the magical Cabiri!!

Busy with school so will post something this week.

I'll let you all start the discussion about the material in Lecture 18!

So we are in a 3 - 2 - 1 countdown!

3 .......


ps janet is back from mexico so we should hear from her soon as well.

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  • Good morning Aleksandar and Ric - once again you both lead and I will follow for I willingly signed up for the whole course and process and even though, submitted feedback has not been freely shared and forthcoming from the collective who joined; the 3 of us continue to put ourselves out there, in here, for whatever purpose that serves....

    Aleksandar defining yourself as "weirdo" is an interesting choice of words, and by this, do you imply that you are a soothsayer?

    I noticed a double stance in your next comment, "I don't occasionally leave and think outside the box."  There are no commas between 'don't and the word 'occasionally' that presents as a kind-of double-bind state to me.  Ah yes, thinking or being 'outside the box' - and all I can offer is who's box and what aspect of your being are you addressing?  Mind, body or spirit - boxes?

    Perhaps the reason you experience difficulty comprehending someone else's 'box' is that you have not worked with your own 'box'?

    I find it rather bold for you to even believe you are "the one who has killed the idea of like-minded individuals chatting about the forgotten gem by their beloved writer - without leaving their comfort zone."

    Wow Aleksandar, where is that coming from?  I believe it grandiose to even think that you can 'kill ideas of like-minded individuals,' for this would imply that you have studied, are versed and an expert on meditative states of mindfulness.

    To imply those of us who are exposing ourselves into this open space and are simply 'chatting' is an insult to what I have shared deeply from my being.

    To state Jung is a 'forgotten gem' is simply foolish for he will be reviewed by young and old scholars for the remainder of time.  I do not identify with Jung as one of my beloved, post-humorous writers and have admitted I am novel in both reading and studying his works.  One beloved, post-humorous writer I did and still do have lovingkindness feelings towards is the man who was known by his undergraduate students as "Dr. Love 1A -  Leo Basaglia.  Just thinking about his text, "Living, Loving and Learning" warms my heart.

    And the final straw for me is your preposterous and pressumptive comment "without leaving their comfort zone" - Wow again and I can simply only offer this - you have much to unlearn and experience outside your mind [thoughts].

    Anyways, I shall wait patiently for our co-leaders to open Lecture 19 for we are near this Lecture course/group end which will be our own new beginnings.

    Have a great day.  Peace + love Linda

    • Let's suppose that taking seriously "signs" and similarities in outside events is delusion. I prefer the response "You see connections where there aren't any" to "I don't know what to say" (or silence). That part about thinking outside the box is that I might, while looking for my box, be a victim of imagination gone astray (nothing dramatic or catatonic, just delusion). . Real self-analysis should include leaving the comfort zone. You'll see the same dynamics (people joining (and chatting) fast and leaving even faster) wherever people are expected to be focused for a relatively long time. 

  • While we are waiting for the Lecture 19 discussion topic, I’ll be writing here.

    Linda has mentioned a few times dangers of being overwhelmed by the (previously) unconscious material, about dangers of physiological manifestations such as catatonia etc. I am by definition a weirdo. I don’t occasionally leave and think outside the box, it’s more that I have difficulties to comprehend when someone is boxed. I really apologize if I am the one who has killed the (already tired – months seem to be longer than eternity nowadays when TV offers something “new” every day) idea of like-minded individuals chatting about the forgotten gem by their beloved writer – without leaving the comfort zone.

    My problem with aforementioned meaningful coincidences is whether they are genuine phenomena or not. I am very skeptical about it. Once I conclude that I’m actually witnessing the collective unconscious manifesting itself, I have to deal with it.

  • We are still waiting for the Lecture 19.

  • Good afternoon Aleksandar - I believed I was done responding to this Lecture material; and then, you posted the above and these are my thoughts:

    The opening of The Prisoner, I was unable to capture sound, however, got the gist of the intro, his apprehension against his will.

    The two songs, continue to be music I would not listen to by choice - too much sensorium implosive stimulation for my peaceful system state, personal and work environment, and concerning disambiguation as a process of resolving conflict concerning 2 or more different topics with "same" natural titles - one must stretch the imagination into nonsense to contrast God and evolving divine, man-made and natural creations, however, seeing this is where you lead, I contribute the following:

    Origins are important on all matters and the roots of pronoia is military: war, revolt and civil war where streams of state income to individuals/institutions began in the 11 - 15th centuries and an Imperial fiscal rights/means of granting dedicated lifetime grants.  So pronoia gave a guaranteed permission, not ownership and was a way of coercive power.

    Probing into fields of the earth and extracting material matter underground [oil-black gold] and the immaterial recesses of the mind [preconscious, unconscious, supernatural]; insights - secrets/pearls of wisdom, truth] and utilizing the principles of thermodynamic law; these delicate operations may perhaps be similar [complexity], but the energy matter are from totally different origins and planes of existence.  

    This fact becomes significant concerning (e)affect consequence of intrusion into a contained, pressurized system held at equilibrium within the whole - sustainability factor.  Entrophy within a system, having open and closed system capabilities, does manifest as humans are finite beings; however, it is the respect of due care and nurturing environmental conditions and containment which dementia [madness] requires and responds to best - qualified, trained caregivers.  

    There can be no external force upon the disabled and mentally ill who require a return to wholesome small community living, where the basics of daily life - meals, chores, schedules are open, not dictated and where the aesthetics: art and music, loving family members, little children and friendly pets - acts of lovingkindness rule.  Anti-psychotic medication use and acts of homicidal rage decrease, greatly responding to this care model.  So for dementing humans, positive environmental containment is key

    Thanks to advances in the neurosciences we now have models of psychological anatomy with practical therapeutic ways to apply the 3rd Law and simulate a return to human impact, time zero for titrated releases and deep healing of psychic wounds.

    The down side of probing too deeply, too quickly into the depths of human psyche, where paranoia may be present, is the high risk for emotional decompensation, vegetative states, collapse, catatonia.

    I have looked after persons suffering with same and they have taught me well.

    Have a great day.  Our last Lecture arises!  Regards Linda


  • Good afternoon fellow sojourner's - I have completed as much research into Aleksandar's contributions re: 2 sets of lyrics. 1 video with Ric's offerings about the video, and will try to somehow tie all this with the content of the "magic cabiri" within the context of Jung's TRB, in particular Lecture 18 and these are some findings:

    1) The Lyrics:

    a) Heart-of-Green by Deadboy - between two worlds, themes of being cursed, end days, enlightenment passing away, misery in hell for eternity and waiting to go to the 'other side.'  Damnation, no essence, fatalistic.     Souls filled with hatred, mindless, spreading rapidly, damaging, devoted and driven by forces of darkness.       Death for men beneath the gods of ice and sand.  The earth men + sky shall fall.

    * What can I say - nihilism comes to mind.  Music I wound not choose to listen to.

    b) Cursed by 007 (?): shadow in the meadow + bayou, through a fresh heart, belly (gut instinct) is cool while one sleeps in the jungle.  Velvet belly, cool sky goes into the water of fire - tamed.  Dragon sleeps with owl + centipede (highly + lowly) dreams of us.  Touch the refreshing heart free in the distance.  That unique sound exclusive between you + I moving slowly through the refreshing heart.

    * What can I say - sounds like searching for love in all the wrong places, to me. 

    2) Concerning and in addition to Ric's offering on the video:

    The World Clock Idea (Wikipedia used as reference):

    a) Cupid image - implies uncontrollable desire, experiences the 'ordeal of love.'  The dual nature/conceptualizing love as between Heavenly and Earthly (skewed) slant, in my opinion. however, poised into Love verses War - the duality of primordial and sexuality = conceived Eros (erotic love) to accommodate the concept of ambiguity between heavenly love (above) and earthly love (below) - these 2 planes are so different - a perpetual dichotomy split, in my opinion!

    b) Frog image - kind, but handsome and often charming with hidden talents.  A figure of transformation + magic spells, subjects of experimentation, symbols of disgust, the slimy, the repugnant secretions, unclean spirits.

    Frogs falling from the sky is a symbol of the devil.  Symbol of life to the land or end of phallus indicating fertility.

    An item of good luck, narrow-mindedness, arrogant, does not know about the ocean of life and asking for the


    3) The Protest Video - my contributions beyond Ric's:

    a) The two men signing a 'smoking' gripped contract implies a pact with the devil's blessings!

    b) The common people unaware greed is in full swing!

    c) The young man who was sitting alone singing, puts the music down and picks up a grenade - grenade in

    hand, pin pulled out and if his words/music are not heard/listened too; he contemplates blowing himself - a martyr.

    4) 100 years later - the Banal is recognizable.  I do not believe that greed and ignorance are the only major forces leading, nor steering current culture in democratic countries, however and perhaps, not much has changed in countries ruled by dictators, tyrants utilizing abnormal power dynamics to suppress and oppress, control and manipulate the possession of natural products and persons fueling peasant struggle, frustration, distrust and paranoia = unrest - chaos.  The paradigm shift is here and many are consciously aware!

    I am soooooo glad we are getting out of this 'hellish' lecture content........

    Have a fine day and a wonderful weekend.  Peace + love Linda    


    • When I post here a link to for instance a Youtube video, there is always some background why I find it meaningful for me. Instead of "martyr" I would rather say persistence, dedication, even sacrifice sounds less heavy than martyrdom. Also, a grenade doesn't necessarily mean (yes, I fell into the trap to discuss it too seriously for my taste) "look what I'm doing for you" but rather unlearning (as Ric says it) and dealing with the unknown.

      That line from that song in which Ric noticed the word paranoia could be translated as "don't be paranoid". It could mean (regardless of the writer's intents) "you didn't misinterpret this situation" or perhaps "be pronoid" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology)).

      I was offline for a few days and that Youtube link was a sort of motivation to say and do something strange and unexpected. It feels good to totally release your opinion and attitude. Other people respect it, actually.

    • More about opposites such as paranoia-pronoia, entropy (disorder in thermodynamics)-information), isolated (closed, imprisoned)-open (in which entropy can decrease): I either see things that don’t exist or the last two melodies actually are very similar.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhKVych80ME   Muse - The 2nd Law: Unsustainable


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXPoJAyeF8k  Muse - The 2nd Law: Isolated System


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE-EMinj69o The Prisoner - Opening sequence

  • Good Morning Linda and Aleksandar,

    Are we discussing a You Tube ?

    I don’t understand the words of the “protest ?” song of the young man in the park either, but I got the words of “paranoia” - so :

    The young man in the park singing the protest song – alone with no crowd or paparazzi – probably expressing the Banal.

    The Hara Krishna group, presenting their own feelings in their (unheard music) worship of Lord Krishna – with no crowd or paparazzi, only surrounded with yellow flowers.

    The business man paying attention to the group but in disgust, you nearly could hear him thinking, “bunch of nitwits, they better find themselves a job”.

    The business man shows signs of impatience, signs of the muscular – (patience is a feminine quality).

    World time (world clock) and a image of Cupid with the Frog (God).

    The meeting of the business man with some other guy – a crowd of multicultural paparazzi.

    The business man and the other guy signing a contract.

    They shake hands and they burn their hands and are not able to lose their burning handshaking.(burning their hands on dirty but for them provitable deals)

    The young man in the park putting away his guitar and taking a hand grenade out of his left pocket, pulling the pin out and walking away – the open end - whether the young man will open his hand and let the grenade explode or, putting the pin back in the grenade.

    Do you want to express the way of our society that as it functions today – and as for the business man to be compared to the state that Jung was in before he had noticed the Banal, as he described in the RB – and that this state, 100 years after Jung, the importance of the Banal is still not recognized in our society ?

    And Greed and Persona are leading and steering the (unconscious) masses.

    The quick image of the Cupid with the Frog (God) maybe for many people may seem ridiculous to make part of this picture, but its symbolic meaning is presenting itself to the watcher and in my opinion will deliver the message.

    But of course I also got it all wrong,

    In my personal vision a professional very good picture !

    Have a nice Tuesday – Ric.

  • Good morning Ric - thank you so much and how fortunate I [we] are that you have the both knowledge and insights, personally achieved, by reading Jung's CW - the oratory and the laboratory within group, conscious collective manifest!  I value your contributions for without, my first in-depth experience would have been shallow with no fruit for me.  

    Have a wonderful day.  Peace + love Linda 

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