Comments

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  Jennifer M. Collier October 1, 2013 at 1:25pm

  Richard Lamb thank you for all the sharing about dream and your experience-I am going to look up that book as the black sun has been particularly symbolic and of interest to me lately.
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  Richard Lamb October 1, 2013 at 12:41pm

  I have recently started reading a booked entitled, "The Black Sun: the Alchemy and Art of Darkness", by Stanton Marlan. I mention this book as its contents "coincidentally" relate to a most significant dream, featuring a figure I have come to know as 'Plouton'.

  In this dream which I experienced c.19 months ago, I found myself beside a large (c.30m diameter) stone-lined burial pit, like those at Mycenae in Greece. The burial pit was in a vast underground cave, though the ambient light was surprisingly good. Despite this light, the void within the 'burial pit' was utterly black...almost luminous in its darkness.

  Plouton/Hades beckoned me to the edge, and to leap into pit...you can imagine I wasn't best pleased with this proposition! On my refusal to step off that stone-lined edge, the dream ended, and I awoke (I was at that point in a deeply manipulative, and psychologically 'challenging', relationship, which ended abruptly in Dec 2011).

  After this the depression I was experiencing deepened. I eventually took to practicing Jung's Active Imagination and Assagioli's visualizationtechniques, where I engaged Hades/Plouton in brief conversation, then consciously decided, in the waking dream, to leap into the darkness. I haven't looked back, despite the trials (and epiphanies) I've faced since.
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  Robert Matejko September 4, 2012 at 3:34pm

  Apologies for posting my dream question twice. It's a more extensive post, so I wasn't too sure whether to post it in the main discussion forum or the comment wall for themes and images for dreams. I'll gladly remove whichever double post I should remove
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  Mats Winther February 12, 2012 at 6:58am

  Yes, delete them. It's immensely irritating and it's a token of monumental incompetence to create a blog software that crops people's messages. One can get a heart attack for less. We can always continue the discussion here, instead, because I refuse to post to a blog anymore. It is a very interesting discussion. This is my reply reposted:

  Jung once said, "In my case Pilgrim's Progress consisted in my having to climb down a thousand ladders until I could reach out my hand to the little clod of earth that I am." I think the ego-predicament relates to the problem of striking down one's roots in reality, to adapt to reality, instead of floating above it in one's ego ballon. When Eastern spiritual paths speak about ego transcendence, i.e. to reveal the ego as an illusion, this sounds very strange in the ears of Westerners to whom the ego is a lifebuoy in the stormy sea of the unconscious. We know that people cling to it desperately.

  However, my impression is that 'enlightenment' on Eastern lines involves just this, i.e. to lower oneself to earthly reality. We see this in the Zen Ox pictures. After capturing and taming the bull, the enlightened one "returns to the marketplace of life, living in the world, yet in the Self". Note that he is no longer interested in his own spiritual transformation, instead he affects the surrounding, and dead trees will turn green.

  So, arguably, transcending the ego involves climbing down a thousand ladders, thus to return to the marketplace. However, I know that Eastern spirituality is sometimes misrepresented, as there have existed many false gurus, like Sai Baba, for instance. The notion of ego transcendence can also point a seeker in the wrong direction, which has made many people suspicious of the notion of 'emptiness'. However, I know so little about the Eastern ways, so I cannot exemplify.

  This partition into a false and a true way is typical, I believe. The Freudians have spawned two variants of 'intersubjectivity', one false and one true, according to an argument I make in an article. According to Jung, the work of M-L von Franz represents the most congenial contribution to his own psychology. I think Hillman is the false counterpart, as he has simply made an adaption of Edmund Husserl's phenomenology, adding nothing really new to it. His theory runs counter to Jungian metaphysic and theory. Hillman says in the The Soul's Code that his theory is founded on the 'puer aeternus'. But this is a neurotic condition, according to M-L von Franz (The Problem of the Puer Aeternus).

  I conjecture that the partition into false and true paths exists also in the Eastern spiritual traditions. Certain teachers seem to speak of 'emptiness' as a goal in itself(?). Possibly, I myself and others have come to underestimate the Eastern way while we have been misled by the false version. Comparatively, what do those people say about Jungian psychology who have only taken part of Hillman's version? His "Jungian psychology" is in fact antithetical to the true version. He does not encourage people to climb down the ladder and land in reality. On the contrary, he expects them to connect with lunacy, to give free rein to imagination, and to paint the world in subjectivistic colours of fantasy. The images of the mind are to him an end in itself, while 'emptiness' is an end in itself to certain gurus(?).

  Active imagination, as described in CW 8 and elsewhere, is another quandary that has spawned a true and a false version. Christian complentatives in the Middle Ages devoted themselves to 'meditatio', which consisted in focusing on certain themes. It could be anything, but typically it revolved around the stations of the suffering of Christ, the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, etc. Monks, nuns, and mystics, concentrated on these themes and saw what would surface, not the least in terms of feelings. My argument is that Jung simply exchanges the themes. In lieu of the Passion of the Christ, typical for 'meditatio', the themes are now to revolve around the shadow, the anima, the wise man, etc. However, as the virgin Mary is an anima theme, and Jesus is an animus theme, the discipline is essentially the same. The focusing on certain themes to see what will happen in one's soul, would represent the true version of active imagination. In the complentative tradition the finest thing would be, I believe, to experience that one's heart was filled with compassion and love.

  
  
  However, in the Jungian tradition, there seems to be a certain preference for images. It could explain the deterioration among the post-Jungians, while there is a great lopsidedness toward images. It is easy to misinterpret active imagination. To construct stories isn't active imagination. In that case Enid Blyton's The Faraway Tree is an example of active imagination, which it obviously isn't. Nor would I classify creating artful images as active imagination, no matter how "Jungian" they are in appearance. People are very prone to self-deception and self-delusion. In spiritual matters, as well as worldly, it's as if burgeoning truth gives rise to an opposing force, which is a false version, a delusion.

  Mats Winther
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  Mats Winther February 11, 2012 at 10:03pm

  Kay, now you've posted a truncated message of me again. Please don't do this. Don't post them at all if the messages have been destroyed. Not only is it very irritating, truncated messages can acquire a different meaning. Please, either post the whole messages or nothing at all.

  /Mats
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  stephanie pope February 11, 2012 at 9:59am

  No Kay!
  re-sent
  
  not resent
  
  i love how psyche teaches in our show of words how all the meanings ghost  narrative exposition.

   
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  Mats Winther February 11, 2012 at 8:52am

  My message to Kay's blog got truncated and for some reason she won't post the whole message although I resent it. In case somebody is interested in the final part of the reply, it is below. I won't reply to blogs in the future, since I have no control of my own messages. Blogging activity has been described as being involved in a telephone conversation with oneself. I am skeptical about it. 

  ...Active imagination, as described in CW 8 and elsewhere, is another quandary that has spawned a true and a false version. Christian complentatives in the Middle Ages devoted themselves to 'meditatio', which consisted in focusing on certain themes. It could be anything, but typically it revolved around the stations of the suffering of Christ, the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, etc. Monks, nuns, and mystics, concentrated on these themes and saw what would surface, not the least in terms of feelings. My argument is that Jung simply exchanges the themes. In lieu of the Passion of the Christ, typical for 'meditatio', the themes are now to revolve around the shadow, the anima, the wise man, etc. However, as the virgin Mary is an anima theme, and Jesus is an animus theme, the discipline is essentially the same. The focusing on certain themes to see what will happen in one's soul, would represent the true version of active imagination. In the complentative tradition the finest thing would be, I believe, to experience that one's heart was filled with compassion and love.
  
  However, in the Jungian tradition, there seems to be a certain preference for images. It could explain the deterioration among the post-Jungians, while there is a great lopsidedness toward images. It is easy to misinterpret active imagination. To construct stories isn't active imagination. In that case Enid Blyton's The Faraways Tree is an example of active imagination, which it obviously isn't. Nor would I classify creating artful images as active imagination, no matter how "Jungian" they are in appearance. People are very prone to self-deception and self-delusion. In spiritual matters, as well as worldly, it's as if burgeoning truth gives rise to an opposing force, which is a false version, a delusion.

  Mats Winther
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  Ruth Martin February 10, 2012 at 1:34pm

  Yes Hilary, "The Cloud of Unknowing fits well here. Richard, it's interesting that you are using mind-mapping. I have "accidently" landed on 2 sights showing books re: M.M. Could you talk a bit more about this? 

  I haven't had time to be on the site/group in a long time, so I believe there is something here that the uncs knows will benefit me on the ongoing path of Individuation. Thanks to you 3 for your comments! 
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  Ruth Martin February 10, 2012 at 1:24pm

  A quick comment to Kay, I use Jung b/c it works for me. It is a beautiful mystical combination of intelligence and his research along with his intellectual training. I have been able to move in and out of trance states since I was a child (no, not dissociation, not trauma, just profound intuition-a gift) but I'm not as smart nor as diligent as Jung, so I value his contribution to the world and to me via my rich analysis in the 80's. If it works, don't change it. I think it's true  for you-you have a mystical gift and it works for you and it works for others. There may be some value here for you. And there may be value for me to read your blog.  I'll put my next comment in another comment format so this won't be so long. 
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  Hilary Leighton February 9, 2012 at 10:34am

  Hi Ruth...yes! commonly we humans can confuse the "map" with the territory.  And i have noticed a prevailing proclivity (with the uninitiated) - a desire to pin things down and "make sense" of things in dreamworld that it is  like dragging the uncs into dayworld to apply the kinds of strategies and language that the underworld cannot fully recognize or relate to because it does not typically involve our heart intelligence and senses. For example how does the word "seacow" 'land' emotionally for me when i let myself be 'taken' by that image and how does it coem across while i am sitting here at my computer at the university thinking about what that could possibly mean  when taken out of dreamscape context? Yes, the time of the eyes (and strategic mind) is over, the time of turning images into emotions (what Jung wrote about) is now.  Richard wrote about being open and i would add not-knowing is a delicious way to let the dream do its own mysterious and powerful work.