Comments

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  Ruth Martin April 11, 2011 at 1:35pm

  OK,OK, I'll move the thread 'upstairs'....
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  Ed Koffenberger April 11, 2011 at 10:12am

  I've been to the Haden Institute in NC event and enjoyed it. Much to do and Joyce Hudson was one of the best. I went as a "101" newby to it all several years ago.
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  Dorene Mahoney April 11, 2011 at 8:02am

  I noticed that I stopped a particularly juicy conversation dead when I suggested taking it off the wall and putting it into a discussion thread. Just in case anyone is wondering how to do that, you'll notice that the place where you're reading my comment is entitled the Comment Wall. The section above the Comment Wall is entitled the Discussion Forum. That is where one can post a single topic to be fleshed out. Anyone can start a discussion thread. If you look just above the heading for the Comment Wall, you'll see a little plus sign and the words Start Discussion. If you click on that it will open a new window that will allow you to put a descriptive title, such as "Objective Psyche: both autonomous and personal?" By giving discrete topics their own thread, readers (current and future) will be able to find discussions that interest them. Periodically, when a discussion has gone dormant for several months, I may close it, but I'll always ask the person who opened it first.
  
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  Dorene Mahoney April 11, 2011 at 7:49am

  I've never been to the Haden Institute, Laura, but I discovered them when I ran across their pdf entitled, "Mapping Dreams: The Haden Institute method for working with dreams individually." You can pull it from their site at http://www.hadeninstitute.com/pdf/dvdMappingDreams.pdf. They also have instructions on leading a dream group on their site. I'm excited for you and would love for you to share what stands out for you at the conference. What really attracts me to the organization is that they tie dreams directly into one's spiritual and religious beliefs. For example, they offer training in spiritual guidance. I believe that the organization is Christian, but I'm guessing that the principles could hang on any spiritual belief system. I hope you'll tell us when you return.
  
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  Laura Winzeler April 11, 2011 at 6:31am

  The Haden Institute in Western NC has posted the info for their Summer Dream Conference. Dates are May 29 - June 3. I will probably go as a commuter and just cherry pick the events that interest me the most. Anyone else going, or been in the past?
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  Dorene Mahoney April 5, 2011 at 12:27pm

  I love where all of this is going--everyone is doing great!!!! And I'd like to suggest that you differentiate your discussions, move them off the comment wall and into discrete discussion threads--that will make it easier for newcomers to find the topic, follow your comments, and jump in. For example, you have covered important ground in the area of advanced training versus calling and natural gifts. However, no one will be able to find it over time. Perhaps a good discussion thread now would be: "The objective psyche: How is it both autonomous and personal?" or something like that. Thank you all, by the way, for your amazing insights and stimulating discussions.
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  Ed Koffenberger April 5, 2011 at 11:36am

  The concept of the objective psyche has intrigued me for a few years. The part that grabs me is that although Psyche is seen as autonomous and objective, it is assumed that it seeks to affirm and fulfill each person's individual "purpose" whether that is in some ultimate way (Calling) or in a particular moment (mindfulness?) or both. I like the positivism of that, something is striving even against us to get us to some higher/wholer/greater place. (Reminds me of Maslow and Rogers) But then, what about the collective unconscious, the Psyche. Is this entity interested in our individual progress or the progress of the species? Doesn't this begin to sound like the transcendent vs. immanent God debate? Of course, it could be said that what is completed in one adds to the completeness of the whole, but does that also mean Psyche will sacrifice the unconscious lifestyle to benefit the conscious awakening of others?

  By the way, if Hermes saved you, you are Hermetically sealed to your path.  :)

  I like that too!!
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  Ruth Martin April 5, 2011 at 11:14am

  Wow! This reminds me of a class I had in grad school- It's fascinating and stretching my brain! Thanks!!

  I will throw a piece in here if I may. I went to a presentation by John Beebe last week.  He started talking about the "objective psyche".  I saw one more reference to it in an article by another Jungian.  I had never heard of the concept before and would appreciate any references, info, etc. And, what place would that have in this discussion (or not). What does this part of Psyche do for us?  It's purpose(s).

  I have been saved/rescued from death twice in my life by Psyche...or maybe Hermes?  To me, there is no question about Jung's proposal of Self and self, and the importance of the ego-Self axis in individuation.  
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  Ed Koffenberger April 5, 2011 at 9:46am

  Rats! Brahman's secretary tells me the big B. isn't accepting calls at the moment!! :) Don't work about the can of worms, they will return in a higher form just as this discussion has done!!

  I'll read some of Radin's work when I can get to it along with awaiting your "reading list." In relation to your description of the dream and its interaction with your consciousness, I remember a prof of mine stating that whether the dream is analyzed, amplified, or even made conscious or not, it still has an effect on the totality of the dreamer (auto-pilot). He went on to say that analysis just helps "speed up" the process and make it more conscious (which I took to mean "understandable" in order to then make more congruent [between the conscious and unconscious] choices. (!) )
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  Ed Koffenberger April 5, 2011 at 7:13am

  Okay, finally got a chance to read both Ed T and Lisa at the same time. Some thoughts:

  Ed T, you state that we live essentially as a responder, or even a passive vessel, for the ingrained patterns and societal pressures. There is no self (small s, Lisa) to make any decisions and that what appears as decisions have already been prescribed by the confluence of ingrained patterns and societal patterns. In reality, we are only subjectivizing (a word?) what is really an objective process. I must say that such determinism sounds too much like behaviorism to me in its deterministic emphasis. (Ed T, I am interested in what "scientific facts" you refer to). You can tell I am not a supporter of the idea that we are just simply lucky instinctual beings.

  Also, given, for the moment, that there is a psychological flow of which we are a part, can we choose to fight the flow or choose to get our self out of the way? And if we are doing such choosing, what is doing the reflective observation, the discernment, and the choosing to either fight or get out of the way? It would seem there is something doing the observing and making a choice.

  And if a choice is not really being made, and the subjectivity is an afterthought, almost an illusion best rejected, then developmentally, and resting on evolutionary functionalism, why do we have such a means of subjectivity at all? It would seem to be counter-evolutionary, something nature (assuming this is where the flow comes from) would have jettisoned from our make-up long ago.

  Most Jungians will take the stand that there is a self and a Self along with Lisa, much in line with the Hindu/Buddhist atman and Atman. But Ed T, you do seem to hold a similar stance related to dream work proposed by Hillman and the archetypal folks when they left the amplification aspect of Jungian dream interpretation and instricted us to just ask the image directly what it wants and then wait for the answer. (Over simplification, but so am I :) )

  As to my response, have I just "knee-jerked" my response and all that led up to it, or did "I" make some decisions along the way?